we are filming today for the hamilton collegejazz archive and it's a great pleasure to have with us master clarinetist buddy defranco,who just described his instrument as an "agony pipe." bd: i got that from my sister maryanne. maryanne always called it an agony pipe. she says that's what it sounded like wheni was practicing. and she was right. it's the strangest instrument. mr: difficult.
one of the more difficult instruments i think. bd: difficult, and i would say in line withthe bassoon, oboe, french horn and harp. it's in that category. it's agonizing. you must squeak on a clarinet for years beforeyou begin to play anything. mr: and it strikes me like a violin in thatthere is no such thing as a mediocre violin or clarinet. it's either you're really good or if it'smediocre it's awful. bd: it's pretty bad.
we've got a problem though in jazz, of toomany mediocre clarinet players who insist on playing. mr: yeah. well they figure i can play sax, i can playclarinet. well you've had quite an interesting careerand we want to talk about some of the things you've done. didn't you start out winning a contest? bd: monk, i did, yes. i was fourteen, and won the tommy dorsey swingcontest.
and tommy had this national broadcast fromthe major cities on a saturday night. every week he'd be in a different city. it had four contestants, and it was the tommydorsey swing contest. and i was pitted against three other guys,we were the four finalists. let's see we had a cadet who played trumpet,and a vibraharp player who was quite good, and someone else i forget - oh a tromboneplayer i'm pretty sure. but i was in line, and i was fourteen andi wanted to win of course, and my teacher, willy desimone at the time, played in thepit in the theater, in the earle theater in philadelphia, which is where they held thebroadcast.
they had the broadcast and the contest. and willie was determined that i would win. so he said, "for the contest you will wearshort pants, because the people love that. you'll look so young, and the clarinet willlook real big." and i was very skinny at the time. and then he showed me a trick with the clarinet,it's really almost common with old time clarinet players, to hold the clarinet like this withone hand and play a note. and he said, "at the end of your solos," hesaid, "you're going to play 'honeysuckle rose' because everybody knows the song, and at theend of the solo play your e like that and
put out this hand so the people know thatyou're playing with one hand, you know the people can see it. and he was in the pit and i was scared todeath, but i was playing and i watched him signal - one hand - and i did. well those other guys had no chance you know. they had to lose, no matter how good theyplayed, you know. mr: you were set up. bd: i was set up, yes. but tommy liked it.
but he saw something in my playing, he reallydid. what it was i don't know, but he did. he said, "stick around kid, someday you'regoing to play in my band." mr: and that's what happened, right? bd: that's what happened. in fact, many years later, i don't know howmany, ten, fifteen years later i auditioned for his band and got in. mr: did you grow up listening to the kindof music that you eventually played? radio?
no? bd: no. we started, my grandfather was an opera buffand liked classical music, symphonic music, and that's what we listened to first and that'swhat i played first. and i was fairly good at it and played ina junior symphony in philadelphia and symphony club in philadelphia, as i was twelve, eight,eight to twelve years old playing in that. and then i took a music course at the vocationalschool, mastbaum in philadelphia. in fact joe wilder was here with us - joewilder? he and i were in the same class together backin philadelphia.
we had a great time and we learned. they had two really dedicated teachers. one in particular, mr. lavenneu, conductedthe orchestra. i think he was, well he was the 1936 versionor 1937 version of mr. holland. that's him. except maybe more severe and more intimidating. but we accepted that. now it seems like band directors and orchestraconductors can't get away with being so volatile. they have to be careful, they'll get suedor something like that.
but in those days if he heard, you know ifhe knew that the third trumpet player or the second string violin, if they were playingwrong notes, he'd throw the baton in that direction. but we loved him, we loved him. we knew that he knew and he was directingus in the right way. he cared enough to get angry i guess. bd: yeah. he cared enough to get angry. and so that was a great experience.
then i heard benny goodman. oh i heard johnny mince first. he played with tommy dorsey's band. and my brother and i would go to the earletheater in philadelphia and sit there all day on a saturday, five, six shows, and seeevery show. and i watched johnny mince play with tommydorsey and i thought i'd really like to do that, play jazz. and then of course benny goodman, and thenbenny goodman was, i would say responsible for putting the jazz clarinet on the map.
then artie shaw. and artie shaw to me was, he might still bemy favorite today. so one thing led to another and i wanted toplay jazz. i told my grandfather who flipped out, "crazy." although he began to like benny goodman. in fact i used to tell count basie this storyall the time. basie loved - no matter how many times i'dtell bill the story, he loved it. i'd come home from a long trip with one ofthe bands - johnny "scat" davis or gene krupa's band or charlie barnet.
and my grandfather would greet me at the doorand he'd say in italian dialect, in an italian accent, "okay biga shota" biga shota he calledme. "you're looking pretty good - i seen yourpicture in the paper - what do you got in the pocket?" mr: did you have anything? he says, "you hear benny goodaman? what do you do?" he loved benny goodman. and bill basie would flip every time i'd tellhim that story.
mr: what was it like being on the roads withthose bands? bd: i think an invaluable experience, justgreat to be on the road. even at that early age we appreciated that. we liked the idea of being involved in thatkind of music and swing music and playing, and the discipline of playing in a band wasunequaled. also you experience life in different waysand you get to meet different people and some of those bands like johnnie "scat" davis orgene krupa, charlie barnet, they both had some of the finest players. all three of them had some of the finest players,who later became excellent studio players
or first or second chair in a big bands, somein symphonies. and it was a great experience because youwould meet the young fellows who were coming up, and all fired up, and you'd meet someof the older guys, experienced, and they could teach you a lot. and then that gray middle section of boozersand dopers that were really on their way out but still could play fairly well but you knewthey were sinking, which was a great lesson because we knew to avoid that gray area, asyoung people. well most of us anyway, not all of us. stay away from that and try for that top guy,you know try to be like him.
mr: so the first couple of bands, krupa-bd: scat davis, krupa, charlie barnet, ted fio rito, and boyd raeburn. i don't know if you ever heard boyd raeburn. mr: i've heard of him. bd: it was really the first outside band,the first space music band. most songs were totally unrecognizable withthose arrangements. we loved it and it was a great experience,it was like going to school to play these arrangements. we had george handy arrangements, johnny richards.
in fact the young fellow that was singing,jay johnson, used to announce the band, the rayburn band, backstage. and he'd say, "from the planet mars, here'sboyd rayburn." and it was like that. and i tell my audience every time, that bandwas so far out we could empty a room in two minutes. we did. nobody liked it. mr: how long did it last?
bd: it lasted about a year and a half. bd: well he made a lot of noise in inner circles,you know music circles. would they book you for a dance though? bd: unfortunately they booked the band fordances too as well because you had to fill in. in those days you couldn't consistently playconcerts. so it had to be dances as well. mr: they danced out of the room, right? bd: danced out of the room.
mr: what was it like, did you notice differentresponses in different parts of the country? bd: no actually the amazing thing about swingand big bands was it was accepted, generally, in every area of the country. and even some areas where, you know, dubuque,iowa - you'd say dubuque, iowa, why? you'd play there, five thousand people orwhatever, all jumping up and down, and five hundred in front of the stage just listeningand the rest all dancing. just incredible. in dorsey's band for instance, every guy inthe band had his fan club. and we played some stadiums, and it was sojammed with people that you just couldn't
get off during intermission, they'd have topass up the cokes and water up to the band from the police, and the police would do that. they would just be so tightly wound aroundthe bandstand. couldn't get off. mr: it was the pop music of the day. bd: it was the pop music of the day and alsoa lot of people wondered why jazz didn't stay in that focal point, in that high area. when we started playing bebop, i say "we"because i was a part of the bebop era. and of course i heard charlie parker and thatwas it, i had to be a part of that.
and rhythmically it was a little differentand harmonically, and so we divorced seventy or eighty percent of the dancers. they could not dance to bebop. they could dance to straight swing music,that was jitterbug. but when we got to complex rhythms and allthat, they couldn't, their brains couldn't handle the intellectual development of bebopand their feet couldn't handle the thematic development, so they reverted to neanderthal. they had to. mr: they found something else.
bd: they found something else. they had to go back in history and find thesimple way to do it. so we lost out that way. that's part of it anyway. mr: your first experience in bebop, wheredid that take place? back in new york? back in new york. i had not worked with charlie shavers at thetime but we knew charlie pretty well and met him on broadway.
when i say "we," dodo marmarosa, who was quitea piano player. i would say at fourteen years old he was oneof the best in the world, jazz piano player, who also recorded with bird and was on allof the bands that i've played with including tommy dorsey. he was with artie shaw as well. dodo marmarosa. artie loved his playing. but he and i ran into charlie shavers. and charlie shavers said, "there's some guyup in harlem that i heard last week playing
alto." he said "i don't know what he's playing, butit's completely different and it's pretty wild stuff. you ought to hear it." so we made it our business to go and hearbird when we found out where he was going to be up in harlem, which was i think minton'sat the time. and when we saw him he had borrowed a saxophone,he didn't even own a saxophone at the time. but i am proud to say from that time on isaid i've got to try to learn to articulate on the clarinet like he does on the alto.
i was one of the first and i'm very proudof it. and then just a short while after, dodo marmarosasaid, "why don't you play clarinet like charlie parker?" so i did. i did. and i was really the first, successfully thefirst bebop clarinet player in the business. all the guys were gravitating toward thatbut i was the first. mr: it takes an awful lot of facility to pullthat off. bd: yes indeed it takes a lot of facility.
and i was lucky because i had all that early,excellent training so i could do that. and charlie parker and art tatum to me arethe two that stand out for genius in this business. absolute genius. everyone else, as good as they are - and thisincludes oscar, and oscar will tell you this, oscar to me was the epitome of pianists - wouldtell you that the first, one of the innovators was art tatum. nobody played like him before that. but after that everybody tried.
charlie parker was the same. charlie parker influenced every musician inthe world that plays jazz. from his point on, even now, we all live incharlie parker's shadow. mr: someone had a quote about that. if he could sue people for what they've takenfrom him. bd: from what we've all taken - we had to. and what the strangest thing is is that someof the most commercial type bands, we used to call them "mickey mouse bands" and eventhe rock groups, unconsciously are playing a lot of those figures that bird originated,and are not even aware of it.
and you can go to bapooh japan and see a littleguy get up and play tenor, and he's maybe ten years old and he's playing bebop. you know he's playing charlie parker orientedmusic. mr: what did the record companies, what didthey think of bebop? bd: most of them didn't like it. they didn't understand it or they didn't likeit. it's only when bebop caught on with dizzyand bird and jazz at the philharmonic that record companies began to say well maybe there'ssomething there. norman granz had his own record companiesand began selling records like mad.
and so they got in on that. but most of the company executives, in almostany area, didn't know what they were recording. i hate to say that, but it's pretty closeto the truth. very few. very few really knew, good or bad. mr: what to market and what not to market. bd: yes, exactly. what to market and what not to market. yup.
that's really what it amounts to. the amazing thing about that era was thateven though - it never died - it just kind of faded and then other music came in. even though it faded, it never lost hold. it was always there, always consistent, wealways had a loyal following around the world. a very loyal following. true a narrow corridor, a narrow section ofthe public, but very loyal, and always came to see us. mr: there wasn't that much room but if youwere at the top of your game, then maybe you
could get enough chances to play. and even when things were really fading herefor bebop so to speak, or modern jazz, we could go to europe, and we're always recognizedin europe. seventy percent of my income was in europefor many years. 1950 around that area is when i decided iwanted a big band, but willard alexander came to me and said, "i'm putting together a smallgroup for count basie because big bands are kind of folding." which i didn't want to believe. i wanted my big band because i idolized bennygoodman and artie shaw.
but he was right. so he put me with the basie band in 1950 andthe guy i told you about, lenny lewis, he was managing, he was the manager. mr: no kidding? mr: so this was in chicago, when they gottogether? bd: it was at the brass rail in chicago, yeah. mr: seven - six or seven pieces? bd: it started out clark terry and bobby graffrom st. louis, a tenor player, myself on front line, bill basie and jimmy lewis playedbass and gus johnson played drums.
and shortly after that, freddie green joinedand that was fantastic. it really made that group. mr: you had to have freddie, right? bd: huh? mr: i mean freddie was such a part of -bd: he was a part of basie, and freddie came by a couple of times and just sat in becausehe wanted to play, and bill realized as well, this is the rhythm section. it was great to work with them. it was like going to swing school.
and then bobby graf left shortly after weorganized and wardell grey. and he was great, he was just great. he was a great player. so that was quite a group. that quintet was quite a group, sextet. and on sunday afternoon, a young fellow bythe name of joe williams would come and sit in and sing, because he loved bill basie. and after the second time that joe came inand sang, you'd see bill's eyes light up, this is the guy that can sing today.
it wasn't long, then he hired joe. mr: what kind of material was joe doing atthat time? bd: well he was doing mostly the swing erastuff and the blues. because he had followed jimmy rushing, whowas really the blues singer of the big band era, the top guy in fact. but of course joe williams had that littleextra something that added to his performance with basie, the sound and robust voice hehad, plus the fact that he could handle the ballads very well. so that made him an extra feature.
and that was great, i enjoyed that. mr: and how long did that group hang together? bd: hard to figure. i would say about a year and a half or so. basie found lenny lewis stealing and firedhim. i found out also that artie shaw chased - beforeall this happened artie shaw chased lenny lewis down broadway one time for some oddreason. but he was brilliant. i can't put him down.
lenny lewis was brilliant. mr: a good promoter. bd: a good promoter, and basie will tell youthe same thing. i'll tell you working with count basie waslike, we were a family, it was actually a family. as loyal as a family, maybe more so. and it was one of the happiest experiencesof my whole career. for instance, playing with tommy dorsey wasa great experience. but that was almost a terrorizing experiencein many ways, because tommy was bigger than
life and he could fire you at a drop of ahat you know. he was generous, he was, and i'll quote zootsims, you may have heard it, tommy dorsey was a great bunch of guys. so he was all those things. but bill basie was one of the nicest peoplein the whole world. and it reflected in the group, in the waywe got along. mr: was there ever a problem with the racialmix in that group? bd: not in the group. never -mr: not in the group but -
bd: well yeah. we used to consider the people on the outsidewho had problems with the race combination "civilian." we did have some problems, and then i gotin some difficulty in chicago because while i was with basie's band i stayed at the croydonhotel, i always stayed there. and harry belafonte, we worked together alot opposite each other. he would come over and stay at my place forovernight or two days if they had room there. and then i began to receive phone calls fromanonymous people, "we don't want him around here - no blacks around here" -you know.
at one time i was accosted almost by a groupof guys in chicago for playing with black people. but in the basie band, it was never a consideration. and i loved bill for that reason. bill basie looked at you as a player. and a human being. and that was it. it's a strange thing too, i almost duringthat time because, with some of the experiences with the civilians on the outside i almostbecame anti-white.
yeah. and with good reason, you know, at the time. mr: i mean the music you were playing, itwas so connected with black culture and there you were in the middle of it. bd: that's right. and half, maybe more than half of jazz, wascreated by white people. and dizzy spelled it out pretty well, we had- utilizing african and latin rhythms and caucasian and asian harmonies, and put thattogether and play jazz. so that was you know a conscious effort towork together, and it worked.
so there was no room for a differences ofraces. once in a while you might experience thatin the music business but rarely, rarely in the jazz field, in those days. it changed you know. but in those days it was either you playedor you didn't play. mr: so shortly after that group, basie wasable to, economically i guess, add his people back. bd: there again, willard alexander said thetime now is right for the big band and i think bill basie is the kind of a guy that couldspearhead this kind of thing, and he knew
he had joe williams with basie's band, whowas a plus factor, not only musically but commercially. and he said to bill basie, "time for the bigband." and everybody in the business, including normangranz, said better not take a chance, you know. big bands are finished. but willard said no, let's go ahead, let'sgo ahead. and they did and they soon made a couple ofrecords and they made one "every day" with joe williams, and that was a smash.
big, big hit. so it catapulted basie right up to the topagain. and it also brought the idea of big bandsback into focus and as a result of that, and guys like woody herman and stan kenton, someothers that kept on operating, they've instigated perhaps more than thirty thousand big bandsthat are operating now in schools. which nobody knows about, but that's a lotof people. that's a lot of bands. mr: you got into some jazz education earlyon. bd: oh yeah.
i still am, well with a recommendation fromstan kenton. things were very rough and i wasn't doingtoo well and i was griping and moaning at stan, and stan says "well that's true, thingsare bad, why don't you do what i do? let's get into the schools and try to salvagesomething from the young people in the schools. we know we're not going to do much good withthe older people, but let's get in the schools and get the young people and see what we cando." and i did. i started going, teaching and doing theseclinics and master class sessions in schools, which also instigated a lot of interest innot only bands, but the clarinet.
because the clarinet really almost died asa jazz instrument. but we kept it going. mr: did a good job too. i mean it's still happening now. bd: oh i think there are more clarinet playersnow then there have been in twenty years, which is great. mr: and for a few years you were leading theglenn miller orchestra? bd: i did for eight years. '66 to '74.
mr: i saw you in rochester, new york. bd: did you really? mr: i think it was '66. bd: we had a good band. in fact, in fact, in fact, last week we receiveda cd that's just released in japan of the band, actually the last group that i led,the last miller band. we recorded in japan. it's taken twenty-four years to release thatrecord. but we got a copy of the cd and it's a greatcd and the band is just terrific.
and you could hear that youth and fire inthat band. so we proved something there also. when i say "we" we kept the idea of that bigband and swing going. and it turns out the glenn miller band isprobably the most popular band in the world. that includes japan. number one band there, the glenn miller orchestra. mr: in japan. mr: boy that's saying something. bd: and he was remarkable.
because it seemed like he really knew howto turn out hit records. he did. one after another. i can't think of any other band that has asmany hit recordings as glenn miller. mr: i guess it took him a while to find hissound but once he found it he really took it and ran with it. bd: well actually it didn't take him thatlong. i would go through the annals and the filesof the glenn miller offices, and the archives, and i'd read scores of glenn.
actually "moonlight serenade" was not "moonlightserenade" when he wrote it. he wrote it, he called it "glenn's theme"and he wrote it as a graduation piece for schillinger orchestration method and thatwas it. it was that lead clarinet with the saxes. and according to dave mackey, who was theexecutor for the glenn miller estate, he tried to sell that sound to ray noble, i don't knowif you've heard of ray noble, big band popular? and ray noble told him, not good, will nevermake it. but he just kept it until he got his own band,and he made it. mr: we should pair that guy with the peoplewho turned down the beatles i guess.
bd: well not many people did. or madonna. i think it all has its place in the schemeof things as long as it's not for instance, here i go again, i don't want to get up onthe soapbox too much, but since i have the cameras -mr: it's the time to do it. bd: it is the time to do it. a guy or a girl gets to be a big star, moviesor other. big star, big, big, big, big. all of a sudden, every word that that personutters, politically, religiously, whatever,
is the word. they are an authority on everything that happens. and i found out that's really not true atall. i found out also that great talent in musichas nothing to do with intelligence. it's another part of the brain that's operating. but whoever gets really, really big and popular,they're the ones who become the guru or whatever, and people accept everything they say. it's really too bad they shouldn't. it really shouldn't be that way you see?
but there's a place for everything. so therefore, back to my original premise- you may not be a good musician, but you are an entertainer, and you have the charisma. that's it. don't label this person a musical genius. all right? mr: because we know there's only two of themnow. there was parker and tatum, right? bd: well i think there might have been more,and you know, peterson, oscar peterson is
in that area, john coltrane, chic corea andtoday cecil taylor i think. cecil taylor is probably the ultimate jazzcreator today, the ultimate in modern jazz, modern jazz. not commercial i don't think. mr: no. i wouldn't book him for a dance. but this must have been a fun record to make. bd: oh, yeah, this is great. mr: oscar peterson.
bd: this is funny because norman decided thatsince so much time had passed, he decided to title this "buddy defranco meets the oscarpeterson quartet." when we actually met in the 50s and playedtogether at the jazz at the philharmonic. night after night. and recorded several albums before together,including one of my favorites, the "george gershwin songbook." russ garcia arrangements, the big orchestra,that's one of the nicest. but this was fun. it's always fun to work with oscar.
always. because he's so dynamic and has impeccabletaste in music i think. he knows when to play what. probably the most, probably one of my favoritepianists to work with, because he knows how to play for the clarinet especially. mr: interesting statement. how to play for the clarinet. bd: there's a certain way, certain registersof the instrument, the piano, that you can utilize behind a clarinet that makes it singor brings it out, and oscar is number one
in that area, as opposed to say, i love, asi told you art tatum was one of the original geniuses of jazz, like louis armstrong, likebix beiderbecke. but very difficult to play with. and he did not enhance the clarinet, art tatum. he was really on his own and you played yourclarinet to suit him. it was his ball game, as opposed to oscar,who really made you sound good. mr: that's very interesting. what is in the future for you? bd: more of the same.
festivals and concerts and clinics in schools,and i wrote, i recently finished a book, i got a bright idea, i think it's bright andi've managed to get it through the copyright office, and i transcribed 20 of the hanonpiano exercises for the clarinet. but i transcribed them in all keys, all twelvekeys. which was remarkable. i'm working on being able to play them now,but it's great, it's great. and we plan to put that book out very soon. and i did a thing with rob pronk, a thing,i did four radio shows with rob pronk, and with hilverson, with a big orchestra.
he wrote the charts and van overloop conducted,and some of the most beautiful arrangements ever, and we're going to release those hereas an lp, as a cd rather. mr: are you working with any particular recordlabel right now? bd: not right now. the last one was "chip off the old block"that i did for concord. carl jefferson suggested i do another albumpretty soon, unfortunately carl is gone, so i don't know, that's in limbo. i did an album recently with al rahman's band,a big band in philadelphia, some nice stuff in there.
i've done a lot of recording activities. many re-issues as well as what i've done recently. many re-issues. mr: it sounds healthy. bd: very healthy and i keep practicing andtry to make it less an agony pipe, and i'll never forget horowitz i believe it was, theysaid, "you're 82 years old and you're still practicing?" and he said, "i think i'm getting better." mr: you know we don't usually ask technicalquestions, but we may have a few clarinet
players who might ask you about your instrumentand the odd looking barrel- bd: the odd looking barrel? well let's see from top to bottom this ismy creation, this mouthpiece and it's put out by bari, they release it, bari mouthpieces. mr: bari? bd: b-a-r-i? mr: i play their reeds. bd: yeah, right. they put out the bdf mouthpiece.
john denman, by the way, john denman makesexcellent clarinet reeds, he's in tucson, a fine clarinet player. bob wiban ligature, from kansas, and thisis a accubore barrel, which is made of metal, not wood, so that it doesn't change so muchfrom different areas and climates. and it's a yamaha clarinet, and i've playedyamaha clarinets, what 24 years. this is about the best system i've workedout to play what i do in modern jazz. mr: the least agony. bd: yeah you always try to get away from theagony. well i'll tell you those hanon exercises willteach you about agony.
mr: can you swing 'em too? bd: well you actually can. i think unconsciously that's why i chose thembecause they can lend themselves to lines that you would play in jazz. mr: and tomorrow, you're playing in the kansascity group. that's named i guess because it would simulatethe count basie small group, and clark terry is on that thing and clark and i go way back. we were really buddies. he was one fast story about clark and myselfbecause clark and i were contemporaries in
1950 when we joined basie's band, and thefirst rehearsal i will never forget because clark and i had abundant technique on ourinstruments, both of us. and we both wanted to show off. so we did. practically the first song we played, we playedeverything we could imagine into the first song, and enough for three symphonies. and bill basie stopped us. he says, "well wait a minute, we're goingto get there, honest, we're going to get there. take it easy.
not too many notes." and he started plunking at the piano the wayhe does. and before you know we got the idea. there it is. there's the tempo, there's the feeling. of course clark got it a little faster thani did i would say, because i was always a show off you know, technique, i wanted toshow everybody. but it was a good lesson, right in the firstrehearsal, a good one. because that's what his music was about wasthe feel of it and how to play inside that.
bd: and i never realized how everything weplayed emanated from bill at the keyboard. and if you isolate everything else and listento the way he engineered every chart, every arrangement, there was certain ways to playchords and cues and figures. it was just marvelous the way he did it. he knew how to bring a soloist in. how to bring a big band in to the last chorus,everything. and when he and freddie green got together,all you had to do was zero in on those two guys. mr: we've asked a number of people, what madethe basie rhythm section what it was.
and they agree with you. bd: absolutely. without a doubt. mr: and joe, i've read about joe, he wouldtalk about hearing his cues from basie. when he heard basie play something, he knewhe had eight bars or twelve bars to get up there. bd: basie had a cue for everything. he even had to cue for the audience, a feelingfor what they wanted at that time. so he had a little cues we finally pickedup on.
and he even had a little cue for good lookinggirls that came in. that was bill. mr: well this has really been fascinatingtalking with you. bd: thank you. thank you. mr: and as our leading exponent of the jazzclarinet, i hope that you keep it up forever. i'm going to try because i think i'm improving. mr: well on behalf of hamilton college i'dlike to thank buddy defranco so much for joining us today. i wish you a good concert tonight.
bd: my pleasure.
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